Bodymorph and Extras? Options

[Alex Green]

The problem isn't the weaknesses, the problem is the strengths.

[metaphysician]

Maybe what they should have done is offer another usage of weaknesses, specifically -1 XP cost per level of weakness?

You'd need to keep an eye out for people sticking non-weakening weaknesses on low level powers so as to reduce their cost down to near nothing, but I'd rather have a slightly reduced cost than some of the other benefits allowed.

[SkyLion]

I dont see -1 xp as being of tangible benefit to offset a permanent weakness. Besides, what if youre doing it at chargen? 1 NP would be better...like getting a taint discount without the taint. I agree the strengths were poorly thought out. Doesn't mean they aren't salvagable. Besides some of them are good, like adding a dot for range calculation considerations that sort of thing.

[metaphysician]

Sure it would be. You now have a new power, and also XP free to spend on other things. Though yes, you can argue about the rate. 1 NP is probably too much though.

[ProfPotts]

SkyLion - I like to think I'm a pretty reasonable guy... if you have a problem with the way I run games, & feel the need to constantly take issue in public forums, then the simple solution is - don't play in my games.

Yes... for once I feel the 'pissed off' smiley is in order...

[SkyLion]

SkyLion - I like to think I'm a pretty reasonable guy... if you have a problem with the way I run games, & feel the need to constantly take issue in public forums, then the simple solution is - don't play in my games.

Yes... for once I feel the 'pissed off' smiley is in order...

Hey now! Lets keep tempers down...

I was responding in topic on the idea of strengths and weaknesses. I think its okay to express opnions. Im sorry if you felt called out and I didnt mean to say i dont enjoy your games. Would I be playing or about to be playing in so many if I didnt really like them?

It is true that I wish you would'nt be so unilateral in banning things like strengths and weakness, and my previous post was commenting more on how the HERO system does it so well (though I shudder at the thought of trying to play and bookeep with *that* system on PBP forums...::shudder::).

For example i had an idea for a character last night while driving home about a character who can create a corrosive substance that only works on metal. That is something that would require a weakness in Abby rules, and it is truly a weakness. Sure it would be great to disolve thugs guns without hurting them or against collossus, but it is a truly limited for of [q-bolt/immolate] in that it wouldnt be useful for alot of other situations.

Thats the kind of stuff i am talking about. Or like having powers that dont work in daylight or what have you...


Now let me say that i CAN see the other side of this.

I imagine it must be frustrating as hell to get your ST inbox filled with character proposals (and this being the internet and all...) chock full of half thought out player powers and as you say weaknesses that arent really weakness and the whole horribly unbalanced and poorly implemented strength system. I can see why you wuold want to make it much easier on yourself and just unilaterally ban the poorly executed parts.

Im more mad at the daft folks at white wolf who rushed such unplaytested crap to the market in the first place and the ****** players who submit characters like this:



Can we be friends again, please?

[SkyLion]

Thats *IF* your ST will let you use weaknesses like Dependant (*cough* Potts... )

(Seriously Potts! Sometimes certain powers need such limitations for theme...dangit!)

Alex brought to my attention that this was the offending post.

Apologies for the sarcasm. I should have included a or a .

I would hate to see hard feelings or percieved flaming dampen anyones fun, Potts or mine.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled posting.

[Alex Green]

I dont see -1 xp as being of tangible benefit to offset a permanent weakness. Besides, what if youre doing it at chargen? 1 NP would be better...like getting a taint discount without the taint.

As opposed to Taint. Seriously, Taint is about as perm as it gets, but we see people (including myself on occassion) go whole hog on it.

+1 Taint for a level 2 power or a mega gives you +1 Nova point.
That implies that taking a minor flaw on a power that you don't need to use (basically all of them) shouldn't be anything close to a nova point. A point of exp isn't a lot, but they add up, and 6 exp is basically 3 nova points, implying that every exp is basically a half a nova point.

Better still, going with exp prevents the char gen Nova-point all-too-efficient buys of Attr and Abilities.

Further, I don't have a problem with someone getting some exp at char gen... although that somewhat opens the door for min-maxing.

[O-Sensei]

The example in the corebook regarding bodymorph says Houston Tornado 2 buys 4 dots of bodymorph, 3 in DD and 1 as Storm (from a level 3 power), how does that activate? The storm power activates instantly along with the other powers or can she decide when she wants the storm to kick in and is that included in the 2 quantum point cost for activating Bodymorph or will she have to pay 3 extra quantumpoints when she activates the storm???

Can you get any instant powers with Bodymorph (like blast, crush, sphere from elemental Anima/Mastery)?
And if so would the usage be for free or at an ekstra cost pr. use?

[Alex Green]

Many of these issues are either players choice or need to be resolved with the ST. My read on this however is....

Huston Tornado 2 (HT2) buys DD3 and Storm 1 in her bodymorph (I think HT2 is a chick). At the time the power is purchased she needs to decide, is Storm a natural part of her? I.e. does she actually become a Tornado? Assuming the answer is "yes", then that power activates when the bodymorph activates, just like normal. This is the standard way to handle things.

However, assume she claims she really becomes is a big cloud of gas, and the "tornado" effect isn't always on (she spins or something). In that case she'd need to drop 2q (not 3, it's a level 2 power) to activate it independantly of turning on the bodymorph. I.e. she'd need to have bodymorph up to be able to access that power, then she'd also have to pay for it's use seperately.

Similarly, if she buys a dot in Q-Bolt, then since it's an instant power she can't have it always on. Here she'd need to pay 2q to activate it. This sort of thing is pretty rare. She already has the theme of air control, she could just buy Q-Bolt(Wind) directly and it'd be both cheaper and more versitile.

Also similarly, while I've never seen anyone take "Sphere" as a technique, in theory it could be done and also in theory, it might be effective for some characters. For example someone might have Q3, and two dots of a bodymorph. That 3rd dot is only 10 exp and Sphere is area (perhaps the ST might even rule it's lethal damage if the bodymorph effect is fire or radiation). As an added bonus, the character could buy Reduced Quantum Cost on his bodymorph and it would effect all the powers in it, so he'd only be paying 1q per Sphere attack, or nothing if he halves it.

[O-Sensei]

Shouldn't she pay 3 quantum to activate Storm as it is a level 3 power?

So instant powers are better of (and cheaper) to buy as dependent powers of bodymorph than to buy as techniques under bodymorph.....

One of my players have bodymorph (with extra:dual power so he can shift between two bodymorphs) and his forms are shadow and light, representing his dark side and light/bright side, shadow warrior and warrior of light (a bit cheesy, but still a cool concept I think). In his light form he has DD2 and Invisibility 1 and in his shadowform he has DD1, Flatform and Wall. We have been talking about his next dot in bodymorph and for his light form Hypermovement (speed of light) and for his shadowform Clone (army of shadow warriors), but if it dosen't activate instantly, the logical thing is that he has to pay for that separate.

So the advantage off having instant (or other non-normale bodymorph) powers under bodymorph which you pay extra for is perhaps to have access to powers you normally couldn't buy because of the high quantum rating demand???

[metaphysician]

I tend to think Bodymorph is underpowered, myself. Part of me thinks each aspect purchased should use the full dot total of the power, though that might require bumping it up to Level 3.

Of course, I also tend to think the "Suite powers cost 2 points per usage rather than 3" should be the official rule. . .

[Alex Green]

Shouldn't she pay 3 quantum to activate Storm as it is a level 3 power?

If it stays a level 3 power then she can't put it in Bodymorph. BM is for level 1 and 2 powers only (presumably enhancements and single techniques taken out of the suite power are both level 2).

So instant powers are better of (and cheaper) to buy as dependent powers of bodymorph than to buy as techniques under bodymorph.....

Big time.

One of my players have bodymorph (with extra:dual power so he can shift between two bodymorphs) and his forms are shadow and light, representing his dark side and light/bright side, shadow warrior and warrior of light (a bit cheesy, but still a cool concept I think). In his light form he has DD2 and Invisibility 1 and in his shadowform he has DD1, Flatform and Wall. We have been talking about his next dot in bodymorph and for his light form Hypermovement (speed of light) and for his shadowform Clone (army of shadow warriors), but if it dosen't activate instantly, the logical thing is that he has to pay for that separate.

Clone is a Qmin 5, level 3 power. By definition that doesn't work in a bodymorph, any more than Disin can be taken with an extra at Q5.

So the advantage off having instant (or other non-normale bodymorph) powers under bodymorph which you pay extra for is perhaps to have access to powers you normally couldn't buy because of the high quantum rating demand???

To a degree that works... but most of the situations in which this applies are pretty weak. In theory you could just buy the Storm Technique as a stand alone power at Q2 if you could convince your ST that making it a standalone power reduced it's level to 2 and it's Q min to 2.

It's important to point out that this isn't always the case (or rather that it shouldn't always be the case). Bio-storm (from Enthapy Mastery) taken as a stand alone power would IMHO still be a level 3 power (it's buildable with strengths and weaknesses). Many of the suite powers have one or two "hit below the belt" techniques that make the whole suite worth while.

Bodymorph is IMHO already pretty huge since it gets around the need to link powers and/or pay for their q-costs seperately. You have a guy with electricty powers who has flight, forcefield, hypermovement, immolate, and claws+app who doesn't need to spend 5 rounds turning on his powers and also doesn't need to burn through 10q every 4 rounds keeping all those powers up.

You also have the ability to introduce big time themes. If you have an electricity guy with those above powers, would the ST let you buy teleport? Maybe... but if you're litterally made of electricty then it's definately in theme (yes this only matters if your ST is big on enforcing theme). Also this extra theme can compensate for theme or stat lackings in other places. My perception is 2 so the ST won't let me buy Mega-Perception with experience... but I could add x-ray vision inside a radiation bodymorph.

The only draw backs for the above character are as follows. He can't seperate his powers, immolate always comes with flight so unless he has attune 5 picking up people is rough on them. He also can't upgrade his powers directly. Immolate+Aggravated would be a level 3 power which he can't get inside a BM (although maybe he could just buy the power seperately). He is also inhuman looking in his powered up form (just having the pure powers wouldn't require that).